On this episode, we'll be sharing a recovery story. Dr. Karen Nelson is joined by Nancy Manther who will take us through her journey of diagnosis, treatment, and what it means to live recovery.
On this episode, we'll be sharing a recovery story. Dr. Karen Nelson is joined by Nancy Manther who will take us through her journey of diagnosis, treatment, and what it means to live recovery.
For a transcript of this episode click here.
Dr. Karen Nelson 00:02
Eating disorders thrive in secrecy and shame. It's when we create a safe space for honest conversation that will find the opportunity for healing. Hi there, I'm Dr. Karen Nelson, licensed clinical psychologist at Melrose Center, welcoming you to Melrose Heals, a conversation about eating disorders, a podcast designed to explore, discuss, and understand eating disorders and mental health. On today's episode, we'll be sharing a story of recovery. I'm joined by Nancy Manther, who will take us through her journey of diagnosis, treatment, and what it means to live in recovery. Now, before I begin, I invite you to take a deep breath, and join me in this space. Welcome to the podcast. Nancy, I'm so excited to have you here with me today.
Nancy Manther 01:01
Well, thank you for having me, Karen. I'm really excited to be here too, and hope that my story can help others who are struggling with eating disorders.
Dr. Karen Nelson 01:10
A really important part of who you are, is that you are an author and a writer. So I would love it. if you could tell us a little bit about your most recent project.
Nancy Manther 01:23
Well, yes, that has been occupying just about all of my brain space. And interestingly enough, it's a novel about eating disorders. And it's about two 11-year-old girls, one in the present, and one in the past. It's their journey through their eating disorder experiences. And so there's a lot of my experience woven into it. Not completely, because it's fiction, but…
Dr. Karen Nelson 01:55
Well, let's maybe transition and start talking about the story of your eating disorder. Let's wander back to that place, Nancy. When do you think that your eating disorder began?
Nancy Manther 02:11
Well, I think it began in a phone booth. When I was 11 or 12 years old, I was in this phone booth, with my girlfriend, and she was calling someone. And, you know, phone booths weren't very big. So we were just kind of both in there. And these boys were riding their bikes around the phone booth, making negative comments about our bodies. And so they didn't really say whose body, I just took it to mean me. I don't know why. And so I think that's my first memory of having any negative feelings about myself. And so it just kind of progressed from there.
Dr. Karen Nelson 02:58
Absolutely. So what I hear is that place of like, it's a really beautiful example, a lot of people share a lot of similar sentiments with me, Nancy, of like, ‘This moment when I became aware of my body.’ And it sometimes is through maybe negative comments by others around us. And it sounds like that's what you experienced. And so take me through, from that example. What do you think you remember? Were their behaviors that initiated after that moment? Tell me about that.
Nancy Manther 03:33
What probably happened–I have a sister who's two years older than I am–and I think we just kind of started on this journey of trying diets. And not extreme diets at first, but just like exercise records and all these things that we would do. And you know, my parents were normal about food, you know, they weren't extreme in any way. But they also were…I wouldn't say supportive. I don't know if that's the right word, but they weren't discouraging any of this behavior. So I just took that to mean, ‘Well, this is just normal. This is what you do.’ And then you know, getting the teen magazines and all of that input. It was just like, ‘Well, this is just what you do. So I'm normal.’
Dr. Karen Nelson 04:29
Absolutely. It may have started innocently enough, right? Like, ‘Oh, well, if someone's saying a negative thing about my body, maybe that means I need to change it.’ And it sounds like it kind of started this entry into dieting, tracking, maybe some more rigid behavior around food. Does that resonate?
Nancy Manther 04:52
Yeah, I mean, I don't remember restricting a lot in those days. But I just became aware of calories, and the scale, and measurements, and things like that. I didn't really like my body. You know, I don't remember having a lot of positive thoughts about it, except for those times after I had lost some weight. I don't think my parents really praised me for that. They were pretty low key about all of it, probably afraid that if they made an issue of it, then I would just double down. And they were probably right.
Dr. Karen Nelson 05:30
Right. So they didn't comment on your body. They wouldn't make comments one way or another.
Nancy Manther 05:34
No.
Dr. Karen Nelson 05:36
Okay.
Nancy Manther 05:38
So I mean, my dad would occasionally make comments about his body. But he, you know, he was just normal to me. So that wasn't really a thing at home. Yeah, but I could find it other places.
Dr. Karen Nelson 05:52
Well, take me through kind of the progression, Nancy, of what you noticed about that evolution, what eating did as you moved through early adulthood, and then into middle adulthood. Did it feel like the dieting or restricting ever became more intense or more problematic? Tell me about that.
Nancy Manther 06:16
Well, skipping to early adulthood, or even college, one thing I remember more from high school, that always stuck in my head, too, was that–and I don't blame her for this–but we used to watch The Mary Tyler Moore Show. Right? And you know, she was very slim. And I just thought Mary Richards was just amazing. And so I remember one episode where she said something like, ‘Well, I live on lettuce.’ And that just was one of those things that got in my head. So it's like, ‘Oh, yeah, that's how you look like that. That’s fabulous!”
Dr. Karen Nelson 07:02
I see. Right
Nancy Manther 07:05
And so when I was in college, and then got into my first apartment–and I didn't have a lot of money, you know–I thought living on lettuce pretty much was not a bad thing. So I mean, I would eat other things. But, I mean, that's when I don't have lots of memories of eating lunch. So I gradually started cutting out lunch. I always pretty much ate breakfast. But when I was living on my own, dinner was probably just a salad. At one point, during my college years, I went back to the weight loss program. And I just got this positive feedback. And I just thought, ‘I always have to stay like this.’ So then I think I just started more of the creative restricting. That didn't seem like a diet, but I just thought, ‘This is what I have to do to stay like this.’ And in my mind, I thought, ‘Well, I'm an adult, at 18, or even, an adult body at 16.’ I thought, ‘This is how I have to stay for the rest of my life.’ You know, except for pregnancies, then I was perfect and ate, it was my permission time to eat. But if I didn't have that reason to eat, it's like, I didn't think I deserved it.
Dr. Karen Nelson 08:28
Oh, wow, Nancy, good point. I mean, there's so many important messages that I hear you describing in that story. I mean, number one, kind of the power of these messages that we get in pop culture. And the writers of The Mary Tyler Moore Show probably thought that was just a funny little comment, right? But noticing how the eating disorder clicked into that and thought, ‘Well, that must be my truth. I apparently need to live on lettuce.’ And a lot of minimizing. Or even I guess…. minimizing is probably the right word if it's not that big of a deal, right? Like that comment that you made of, ‘I literally don't really remember eating lunch. It wasn't something to be worried about. It's just kind of what I did.’
Nancy Manther 09:23
Mm hmm. And it was never like the people I've heard people say how they forget to eat a meal. I never forgot to eat a meal.
Dr. Karen Nelson 09:35
Yes. Tell me. What do you remember?
Nancy Manther09:38
Well, I always wanted to eat the meal. I was hungry. But I made myself not eat it. So I would drink diet pop. And then for my lunch break, I would go for a two mile walk in a half an hour and it's like how did I do that?
Dr. Karen Nelson 09:55
You were hauling. Yeah, that was really fast. Okay, I love this point that you made about. It's not that, ‘I wasn't eating because I had no interest in food, that I wasn't hungry, that I had no desire. It's that I told myself I shouldn't.’ That's the message that was running through your brain during those years.
Nancy Manther 10:25
And then if I didn't eat it, I felt somehow better than other people. It's like, ‘I don't need to eat.’
Dr. Karen Nelson 10:35
Right? If people could see me, I'm freaking out. I mean, it's so important to talk about these messages, right? Because you're bringing up so many really important points. It's interesting, a patient of mine was sharing with me, she said, ‘Why is it that when we don't do something that is just part of our biology such as eating, we seem to feel like this moral greatness, right?’ Like, ‘Wow, that person, they have so much control, they didn't have lunch, or they skipped the cake, or they didn't have dessert.’ That somehow that makes us better or more worthy. Does that resonate? Or do you remember ever feeling any of that?
Nancy Manther 11:28
Oh, yeah, people would, I mean, even up until I started recovery…Or even talking to people since then about…I've told people I'm doing this. And I've heard people say, ‘Well, I just thought, I always was jealous of you, because you had so much willpower.’ And, you know, I never thought about what other people were thinking, seeing me not eat, it just didn't register. I just thought, ‘Well, I'm just not eating.’ I didn't think I was sending a message to them.
Dr. Karen Nelson 12:04
And help us if you can, orient us a little bit, Nancy. These experiences of others not seeing you eat was that through the majority of your adulthood? Or what was it most recent, just within the past five years, that became really present? Help us help us understand that.
Nancy Manther 12:25
I think it was more in the past five years, or so. And that's how I continued. If I allowed myself lunch–I would never eat it if I was at home, ever. But at work, I mean, especially working in the elementary school, I kind of had to because I was spending most of the day on my feet, chasing kids. So, you know, but I still was always hungry, even if I didn't eat, but I just kept eating the according to the plan,
Dr. Karen Nelson 12:58
As you moved through adulthood, this kind of ebb and flow of, at times, maybe there would be more rigidity around food, then maybe it would lessen up, and then maybe you would go back into these traditional diet plans. But this theme of, ‘I can't eat freely, I need to have control. I can't eat like a “normal person.”’ It sounds like those themes really moved through a lot of your adult years.
Nancy Manther 13:32
And it's like, I didn't want to let myself go.
Dr. Karen Nelson 13:37
Oh, tell me, help me know about that.
Nancy Manther 13:40
Well, you know, the common–I don't know if I should say common–but you know, sometimes after people get married, and have kids, as normal people do, they might gain some weight, or their body changes. And I would often hear people–I don't know who but you know, just in the world–reference that as, ‘Oh, she just let herself go.’ And I thought, ‘I can never, I'm never going to let myself go. Ever.’ Because then I thought something bad would happen. Would I not be loved anymore? I just wasn't going to go there.
Dr. Karen Nelson 14:14
I would never find out what that bad thing is right? Like I will go to great lengths to never “let myself go.” What a good point. I mean, wow, that is absolutely this theme that I hear. Somehow we don't take care of ourselves if our bodies look certain ways.
Nancy Manther 14:38
And I didn't want that to happen.
Dr. Karen Nelson 14:42
Well, and just kind of the natural shifts and changes that happen in our body that are literally biology, right? It's not that I'm failing or doing something wrong. It's just that my body naturally moves through different changes, specifically talking as a woman, and female related changes. And changes that also happen to men, right? Just these natural processes that happen, and how destructive those beliefs are that somehow I'm supposed to have the same body I did when I was 18 when I'm 45. Like no wonder we're confused and exhausted! I want to return to the space that we were talking about before, kind of this idea of when people let themselves go, or that, you know, if people gained too much weight, they may not be loved or accepted. Do you think any of those worries ever showed up for you, Nancy?
Nancy Manther 15:44
Oh, definitely. And I don't know why. Because I was loved as a child, you know, and I don't know where it came from. I still don't really. I mean, who knows how it all starts or how it comes together. And so you know, thinking I had to look like I did when I was...whatever for the rest of my life…I mean, my husband has told me for years that I was too thin. And I said, ‘Oh, I'm fine. My doctor never says I'm too thin, it's fine.’ And so I really credit him. He didn't nag me about it. But when I told him that I wanted to get an assessment done, he was very supportive. And I mean, I credit him with helping me even do this. Because he helped me be brave enough to do it. And then once I started restoring weight, he said, ‘Well, you know, you fit in your skin now.’
Dr. Karen Nelson 16:56
Oh, wait, wait, say that again? What did he say?
Nancy Manther 17:00
He said that I fit into my skin.
Dr. Karen Nelson 17:05
Oh, well, could you just write a book for what support people need to say? Masterful! Oh, my gosh, it's perfect. Right? It was perfect. Well, let's talk about what was the turning point when you either identified for yourself that maybe ‘I want to get an assessment’? Or did someone express concern for you? Tell us that story.
Nancy Manther 17:38
Well, what's kind of strange is throughout my whole life, I always jokingly said, ‘If I ever had a nervous breakdown, it would be in the form of an eating disorder.’ So I mean, just at this moment, I'm thinking so if I ever admitted that, what does that say? So not going there.
Dr. Karen Nelson 18:04
Right? Almost like there was this kind of knowing, right? Like the back of your brain type of thing. Like, ‘Maybe this is a thing that's been happening for the majority of my life.’ Oh, so interesting.
Nancy Manther 18:15
And one of my daughter's one, I don't know, three years ago, one day she just said, ‘Mom, do you have an eating disorder?’ And I said, ‘No, I'm fine. No.’ So it all started to change when COVID came along, I was working from home, I was doing distance learning on the computer with kids and stuff. And I just started thinking that maybe I needed some nutritional counseling. Maybe, if I started eating more–I thought I was eating healthy but I knew I could do better. So I thought, ‘Well, maybe if I do this with the help of a nutritionist, and then if I do put on some weight, I'll feel so good that it will be okay. And then I'll just have someone there to kinda help keep me from going off the edge.’ So I started that.
Dr. Karen Nelson 19:23
You initially thought, ‘If I could go and see like a dietician or nutritionist to get some advice around food, then maybe I'll feel better.’ What happened next?
Nancy Manther 19:35
Well, I told them that I had some… about my diet history. And I said how preoccupied I was with all of this body image stuff. I can't believe I didn't see it. But anyway. So they had their recommendations, which, rule-follower that I am, I was going to do it. I was paying like $300 for this so I was like, ‘I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna do it right.’ So, bring out the food scale, to measure the meat, or to weigh the meat, and measuring the sunflower butter, and my… It just…One day I was just… It brought back all of that, even though I'd been restricting in other ways for years, it just brought back that whole measuring, weighing… blehhh. So that's when I thought, ‘I need to get assessed for an eating disorder.’ And I did. And then I contacted that other nutritionist and said, ‘Can I buy money back? Because I'm in treatment for an eating disorder now. Thank you very much.’ And she was wonderful. She said, ‘Of course you can.’ And she wished me luck. And it was just kind of like a catalyst for this, which turned out to be a good thing.
Dr. Karen Nelson 21:04
That's right. That's right. Well, and I think it's important, you know, for us to again be deliberate about naming. So you went in for that assessment, and you were diagnosed with an eating disorder in retirement. And I think that is really important for us to acknowledge. I think sometimes there's this, again this misperception, there's a lot of misinformation about eating disorders. And there can be this misperception that, well, you know, once you hit 18, you don't have to worry about an eating disorder, or, it's only for kids or teens or young adults. When, in actuality, we can be impacted by an eating disorder at all different ages. And treatment can be accessed at any point in our journey. And so that is really important to acknowledge. I'm sure our listeners would love to hear what that initial assessment was like for you, and any parts that you remember, or things that were said. Take us through that experience.
Nancy Manther 22:18
Well, one of the funny things was when I called to schedule it, and the person that I was talking to was just asking some general questions, I think. And she asked me if I was binging and purging. And I said, ‘No.’ And then she said, ‘Are you having…’ I forget how she worded it, ‘But are you restricting?’ And I was kind of like, ‘Um, I don't know. Maybe?’ Because then I thought, ‘Okay, then I've been restricting for the past, well at least 20 years plus.’ Because I actually thought I could do this, you know, get rid of all the eating disorder stuff in my head, and not gain any weight. I really thought that was possible. I just wanted the thoughts to go away. And then I started to figure out, no, that’s not how it works.
Dr. Karen Nelson 23:28
We often have a lot of conversations with patients about what is a natural body weight, and that my body is created to find a natural level of homeostasis, this kind of natural setpoint, or a natural place where my body wants to be. And the way that that occurs is when I'm eating consistently and I have moderate movement. And so I often share with patients, if the way that I am maintaining my weight is through restriction, severe exercise, or any other type of eating disorder behavior, that probably is not my homeostasis weight. And that can feel really scary, right? And what I hear you saying, Nancy, is the progression of treatment, right of like, ‘I did wander through a different emotions, and there were times where I maybe felt excited, but then other times that it was hard.’ Maybe help us know a little bit about that. What was that like for you?
Nancy Manther 24:32
Well, one of the things, I guess would be clothes. You know, that was the big… because I didn't weigh myself anymore. We haven't quite smashed the scale, which I kind of want to do, but…
Dr. Karen Nelson 24:47
Yes, this spring we're doing
Nancy Manther 24:51
But I haven't weighed myself since, what August of 2020? So yay for me yay. But having to go up sizes in some things…You know, I think I've told you this before, that I wanted to maintain the weight I had been at in order to have the lower half of me the way I wanted it to be. So then the upper half was really–I even thought I looked kind of scrawny–so things still fit on top, but not always. And then, getting bigger jeans and pants, that was kind of traumatic, but not too bad.
Dr. Karen Nelson 25:52
Yeah. And it's a process. Right? It wasn't overnight, ‘I instantly potentially became okay with and accepted this new body.’ It was a progression.
Nancy Manther 26:07
Right. And it's still a progression. I'm not there yet.
Dr. Karen Nelson 26:10
100%. As you do some reflection on your recovery journey, what were some of the things that were important as you moved through your journey? Were there any things that you could identify as, ‘Man, that was really helpful’?
Nancy Manther 26:32
Well, one of the things you told me was the analogy with the bucket and the little shovel. And digging new neural pathways. I mean, that's helped a lot. Because, you know, sometimes, overcoming some of these things seemed like a really impossible thing. But that analogy, just, you know, digging away at it little by little…
Dr. Karen Nelson 27:08
That's right. And to clarify for our listeners, I often kind of make the analogy that the eating disorder is kind of like, thinking about–like neural pathways in our brain–the eating disorder becomes the Mississippi River, right? Its thoughts and its agenda, they're flowing, and they're rushing kind of through the state and heading on down south And they're fast, and they're quick. And coming to therapy, and starting in recovery, we initially start out with a little Play School bucket and shovel next to it, trying to build a new pathway. And each time you come to therapy, we're making that new pathway, and we're continuing to shovel. And so it makes sense, right? That it's going to take time. If the Mississippi River is flowing in my brain, two therapy sessions, in a dietitian appointment, I'm not building a new tunnel, right? Like it's going to take a little while. And so giving yourself the grace of like, ‘This will take time, but I can still build it. And eventually, I make the new pathway. And it's big enough, and it's strong enough that the water doesn't flow down the Mississippi River anymore. It goes down the new pathway.’ And that feels so hopeful to create that visual in your brain. I love it. Do you consider yourself Nancy fully recovered? Or what does that mean to you?
Nancy Manther 28:44
I don't know if I'll ever be fully recovered. Partially, or maybe mostly because I didn't start this process until I was almost 65 years old. I mean, I think if I had started it sooner, it would have been different. But I mean, I think I can be recovered enough. If that makes sense. And I'm glad that I have recovered at all. Instead of just staying on the path I was.
Dr. Karen Nelson 29:24
I think it's important to name and acknowledge that we have the ability to access treatment at any point in time. And that, you know, this idea that, ‘Well, it needs to be diagnosed in either young adulthood or teen years or early.’Diagnosis and recovery can happen at any time. And I think that is really important to name that, that we don't age out of healing, that it is available, and we deserve it at any time. Right?
Nancy Manther 29:57
It's not uncommon, and you can verify this, that eating disorders can start when women are aging or get to besenior citizens or whatever. And who would have thunk it?
Dr. Karen Nelson 30:18
That's right. That's right. Good point. So, right, like we may enter into treatment, our eating disorder may have started years and years ago, or they can develop at all ages. And I think that really, really good point to mention that Nancy. There are likely listeners right now, Nancy, who are working on their own recovery, anything you'd like to say to them?
Nancy Manther 30:44
Well, don't give up and that you're worth everything. You're, you're enough the way you are, no matter how you are. Just stick with it.
Dr. Karen Nelson 30:59
That's right. Stick with it. I love it.
Nancy Manther 31:03
Oh, the other thing to add on to that is in this more… what's the word… activist?... frame of mind, is that I think it's helped me to think of myself as more of an activist or a warrior type, that's kind of going against the system. That just kind of helps. It's not like it's a timid little thing, I don't want people to know about. It's like, ‘No, I'm going against the grain so it's a powerful thing.’
Dr. Karen Nelson 31:45
Love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much for being with me today, Nancy. It's been just a joy to be able to talk with you. Your story is so important.
Nancy Manther 31:52
Well, thank you for having me. It's been really fun.
Dr. Karen Nelson 32:00
That's it for today. Thanks for joining me, we've covered a lot. So I encourage you to let it settle and filter in. And as I tell my patients at the end of every session, take notice, pay attention, and we'll take it as it comes. I'll talk to you next time. Melrose Heals a conversation about eating disorders was made possible by generous donations to the Park Nicolette Foundation.