On today's episode, we’ll be talking about core beliefs and the variety of ways they can impact how we think about ourselves. Dr. Karen Nelson is joined by Patti Witt and together they will also discuss how self-talk can help us affirm our positive core beliefs as well as support growth and healing in our lives.
On today's episode, we’ll be talking about core beliefs and the variety of ways they can impact how we think about ourselves. Dr. Karen Nelson is joined by Patti Witt and together they will also discuss how self-talk can help us affirm our positive core beliefs as well as support growth and healing in our lives.
For a transcript of this episode click here.
Dr. Karen Nelson: [00:00:00] Eating disorders thrive in secrecy and shame. It's when we create a safe space for honest conversation that we'll find the opportunity for healing. Hi there, I'm Dr. Karen Nelson, licensed clinical psychologist at Melrose Center, welcoming you to Melrose Heals, a conversation about eating disorders. A podcast designed to explore, discuss, and understand eating disorders and mental health.
On today's episode, we'll be talking about core beliefs and the variety of ways they can impact how we think about ourselves. I'm joined by Patti Witt, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and together we will also discuss how self-talk can help us affirm our positive core beliefs as well as support growth and healing in our lives. Now, before I begin, I invite you to take a deep breath and join me in this space.
[00:01:00] First of all, this is the first time I get to say this, welcome back, Patti Witt.
Patti Witt: Thank you.
Dr. Karen Nelson: I am so happy to have you here.
Patti Witt: I'm glad to be here.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Patti and I had a previous discussion and I just enjoyed our conversation so much, I asked her to come back and join me again. We actually work in the same office in Burnsville, Minnesota, so we have the joy to consult and chat with each other often. Today, we're going to be talking about core beliefs and self talk, and we're going to be connecting that into how that plays a role in eating disorders, and then also working on talking about how to go about maybe shifting some of those core beliefs and how to manage self-talk. But before we start, I always ask people to do the, you know, obligatory introduction. So just introducing yourself. And reminding our listeners your role here at Melrose.
Patti Witt: All right. I am Patti [00:02:00] Witt and I am a licensed marriage and family therapist here at the Melrose Center in Burnsville.
Dr. Karen Nelson: When I say the words core belief, what comes up for you or maybe help our listeners give them a little bit of a definition of what does that mean?
Patti Witt: Alrighty. Core beliefs can be positive or negative, but they impact how you see the world, how you move through the world, how you interact with the world and with yourself.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right. So I like how you initially acknowledge they're positive and negative, right? And so sometimes what I like to share with patients is that core beliefs are almost like an internal dialogue that we have with ourselves.
Patti Witt: And sometimes they're unconscious internal dialogue that we're not even aware of.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's it!
Patti Witt: Mm hmm.
Dr. Karen Nelson: I love that. Well, maybe tell us, as you have done this work for a while as a therapist, what have you noticed about how core beliefs may start to develop for [00:03:00] someone?
Patti Witt: So, it is typically believed that core beliefs are formed before the age of seven. Children are little sponges, and they take in all the information that they see, hear, taste, smell, all through their senses. And they're not discerning, and they don't have context, and they're very black and white thinkers, those little ones. So, they develop beliefs about themselves, about the world, and about other people.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right. So they really do start developing upon our entry into this world.
Patti Witt: Absolutely.
Dr. Karen Nelson: And so, I would love it if you could kind of give a generalized example of what could that look like.
Patti Witt: Okay. So, if you have a child that, let's say, first grade, and they are excited, they raise their hand, they know the answer. And they get the answer wrong and the teacher is like, ‘Oh, that's such a good try,’ chooses somebody else. And in that little child's brain, they're thinking, ‘I'm [00:04:00] stupid.’ And anytime they try to do something and they don't get it right, or they mess up in some way, they might have this idea that I feel stupid. And then over and over, what might happen is it turns into, because they're black and white thinkers, I am stupid. And then that's their belief. And that's how they're going to move through the world with this idea. I can't succeed. I'm stupid.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Exactly. A beautiful example. Part of the, I get to call it the cool part of therapy, sometimes the painful part of therapy, is when we do some of that reflection and work with people to start to identify, maybe what were some of those messages that they got either overtly, right? So maybe a teacher saying that's not right. You got it wrong. Or maybe it's covert or quiet or silent. Where maybe I'm ignored or I was laughed at or those experiences happen and [00:05:00] it, again, I'm pulling in that information as a little one. I'm not always logical, right? I'm in my feeling brain.
Patti Witt: That's right.
Dr. Karen Nelson: And I start to develop those core beliefs. I would, maybe let's pause for a second. We're going to use the term probably frequently. Let's talk about, what does black or white thinking mean? Or we might use the word dichotomous thinking. What does that mean?
Patti Witt: I'll give you an example of black and white thinking from childhood. So if I told a kid that they needed to put some meat on their bones, they would look at me and they would think, ‘I need to put a hamburger on my bones.’
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right.
Patti Witt: Now, when you get a little bit older, nine or ten, they might not know what it means, but they might start to think that there's probably a different context. So, earlier, they see it as like truth or untruth, black or white. Older, they start to put it into context.
Dr. Karen Nelson: I think, too, you know, when I chat with my patients about black or white thinking, it really [00:06:00] often signifies that idea of all or none. An example that we might use connected to eating disorders, oftentimes our patients will categorize foods in all or none. Either I eat zero cupcakes. And even if I have a bite or one, I'm bad. Or right, I only eat fruits and vegetables. If I eat any carb, I'm terrible. So these rigid rules about life can feel kind of paralyzing. I like how we were kind of talking about the evolution of core beliefs and how they potentially can show up in someone's life. Maybe let's you and I kind of name some examples of what core beliefs might be, like literally just kind of some names of them –
Patti Witt: Okay.
Dr. Karen Nelson: – to kind of help our listeners know. So you started with the one, right, of ‘I'm dumb or I'm not smart.’ Other ones that you've noticed.
Patti Witt: I'm unlovable.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's it.
Patti Witt: People don't like me.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Yes.
Patti Witt: I don't fit in. I'm worthless. You want to [00:07:00] try some?
Dr. Karen Nelson: I got some. I'm a failure. I, the unlovable one comes up so frequently. I'm difficult. Right? That's another one.
Patti Witt: Yep.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Yes. I'm difficult. Things won't work out for me.
Patti Witt: Right. I can't succeed.
Dr. Karen Nelson: I feel so sad. We're like, what else do we hear? I think it's important, literally, as we name those, many of our patients will say, ‘Yes,’ to many of them.
Patti Witt: And what happens is, as you listen to your client you hear the themes. And you as a therapist can start to pick out the theme and kind of see how it starts to fit into their lives. And they may not be aware at all.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's so good. So it's one of the kind of skills and benefits of coming to a therapist who deeply understands core beliefs and how those connect into your life. Could there be positive core beliefs? I'm like scanning my brain. Why am I only thinking of the negative ones? Go! Do you have any good ones?
Patti Witt: I [00:08:00] can succeed.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Yay! Right?
Patti Witt: I am lovable.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Maybe we just do the opposite of the negatives.
Patti Witt: I have worth.
Dr. Karen Nelson: I like it. I'm enough.
Patti Witt: I'm a good person.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Yeah.
Patti Witt: But a lot of times those don't show up because when people come to therapy, many times they're stuck. Yeah. And a lot of times stuck is connected to a negative core belief, because the core belief is limiting how they move through life and how they get what they want.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Really good point. I mean, it makes a lot of sense, right? People often don't arrive in therapy if things are going really well and life is all worked out. Often they show up in therapy when there is a space of struggle. And so as we're explaining what core beliefs are, how they evolve, let's maybe do some exploring of how they can impact us. If I have one of those negative core beliefs that I'm not enough, how could that show up in my life?
Patti Witt: Okay, so [00:09:00] if I have a core belief that I am unlikable or people don't like me, then what, how am I going to act around people? Because I am going to assume, make the assumption, that people don't like me, people don't want to be with me. So when I go to a party, I am going to be so uncomfortable. I'm going to have difficulty looking in people's eyes, because I don't want to see that they don't want to see me. When I walk by people, I'm going to avert my head. My whole body is going to turn. And what are people going to see when they look at me? They're going to see somebody that's unapproachable, somebody that maybe isn't smiling. And then they're probably not going to really want to interact with me, which is going to then inform me that it's true. That I'm unlovable, I'm unlikable, people don't like me.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right. If I have one of these core beliefs, again, a core belief is impacting how I'm making sense of the world. And if I have a belief that I'm not good enough, I [00:10:00] probably am going to look for evidence.
Patti Witt: Oh, for sure.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Right? I mean, do you notice that with your clients?
Patti Witt: Absolutely. I notice it with myself. Okay. We have core beliefs too.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's true. That's true. That's true. Should we start talking about me? All kidding aside. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's how we structure our, like, understanding of the world.
Patti Witt: Right. Because when I'm at the party, of course somebody is going to say, ‘Hi, Patti.’ And I'm going to say to myself, ‘Oh, they're just being nice.’ So I'm going to take out the positive information and only pull in the negative information to substantiate my negative core belief.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Absolutely. So, core beliefs impact behavior.
Patti Witt: Oh, for sure. And they impact your body. Like I said before, if I'm walking by you, my whole body will shift a little bit to protect me from hurt. I don't want to see you reject me.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Absolutely. So that space of almost, if that is the core [00:11:00] belief, I end up looking for evidence because I'm already maybe a little worried or fearful of rejection, which makes a lot of sense. No one wants to feel that discomfort. The interaction might play out where I probably do feel like I'm not fitting in. People aren't talking to me. And then it becomes more evidence for that core belief to be almost like sustained in my being. I absolutely love the examples that you're giving. How may core beliefs show up for people who are struggling with eating disorders? Or tell us about some of those conversations that you might have with patients.
Patti Witt: So if you have a core belief that you're unlovable, and you really don't want to feel that, you might use an eating disorder behavior to numb yourself out. I mean, core beliefs connect with emotions, and so shame, fear, sadness, anger. And [00:12:00] emotions can connect with using eating disorder behaviors to not feel the emotion, which is, of course, connected to the negative core belief.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Perfect example. The other thing I often talk with my patients about, right, that core belief of ‘I'm not lovable or I'm not enough,’ that's a common core belief that we hear from many of our patients that are struggling with an eating disorder. We often know, and it makes sense to me, if I feel like I'm unlovable, it probably makes sense that I want to figure out how I might become lovable. And the eating disorder sends the myth, ‘Well, the way that you become lovable is lose weight or cut out carbs.’
Patti Witt: ‘Be perfect.’
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right. Unfortunately, the eating disorder is a liar and engaging in those symptoms isn't going to bring them closer to that desire to want to connect. It often is just dysregulating them more, which makes it even more [00:13:00] challenging to connect.
Patti Witt: And then with other symptoms, the eating disorder will say, ‘If you eat this, you will feel comfort.’
Dr. Karen Nelson: Good one.
Patti Witt: And then you feel comfort for a short period of time. And then you might use compensatory behaviors or not, but then you feel intense shame. Which then, you know, might connect with your core belief of, ‘I am a failure.’
Dr. Karen Nelson: I loved that example, Patti. Let's maybe give our listeners another example. You know, so we were talking about the unlovable one, often shows up. Another one that I hear often from my patients is that the world is scary or bad things will happen. You know, that aspect of, it makes sense to me again, if the world is scary or unpredictable, I might want to do something to make the world seem a little bit more predictable and reasonable. So oftentimes my patients will share, the eating disorder feels almost safe in a way.
Patti Witt: So if I [00:14:00]can't control what's going on around me, or I really want to control what's going on around me, what will happen is you can control what you put in your mouth. Or you can control how to get it out of your body. And so unfortunately, other people will look and say, that's actually out of control.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right.
Patti Witt: But for a person with an eating disorder, it feels like you are totally in control.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Absolutely. I think also I work to just create and establish a lot of compassion. You know, imagine having a life where maybe my life has been very out of control. Maybe a lot of hard things have happened to me. I've experienced trauma. That was our previous conversation that we had on trauma. It makes sense that I might want to organize and create order in my life to make me feel less scared. Or what do you notice about how your patients will use symptoms?
Patti Witt: So I think you're right. You hit the nail on the [00:15:00] head. I can control when I'm going to eat, what I'm going to eat, how much I'm going to eat. The unfortunate thing is that then it becomes so rigid, your life is a very, very narrow path.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right. So it's almost like an oxymoron. I'm doing these behaviors because I want control, but then I'm actually out of control because the behaviors, I feel overwhelmed by them. The eating disorder often has its own agenda.
Patti Witt: True. And then the other thing that can happen for all different kinds of eating disorders is that feeling of numbness where you don't feel anything.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right.
Patti Witt: For a longer period of time or even a short period of time. Again, underneath that is a whole bunch of other emotions just waiting to come out.
Dr. Karen Nelson: We were talking about some of the emotions that are attached to core beliefs. I mean, we have to talk about shame, right? I mean, it just comes in there. I mean, it's the best friend of core beliefs, right?
Patti Witt: I've never heard it put like that, but I love [00:16:00] it.
Dr. Karen Nelson: I think they live in the same house for sure.
Patti Witt: I think they live in the same –
Dr. Karen Nelson: Any thoughts on that, of how those two become connected?
Patti Witt: Well, I mean, the negative core beliefs are not positive. They're typically going to be connected to mostly shame, fear, the fear of rejection, hurt, sadness, but shame is at the core of core beliefs because it's always – I think it's like, you're never going to be good enough. You're never going to be safe enough. You're never going to be accepted enough. You're never going to be enough. And never being enough is a shameful condition.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Because there truly is no behavior. If I have the belief that I'm not enough, it doesn't really matter what I do, how much I do it. It will never be enough, because if it returns back to that core belief of never enough, literally what that says, it's never enough. It brings [00:17:00] up so much emotion. And I think that our patients deeply connect with that. That is often a very common experience that happens as we kind of peel back the layers, per se, in therapy to really look for maybe the origin of, how do you make sense of who you are in this world. One thing I want to say about shame, often it can be helpful to clarify that shame is different than guilt. Help our listeners know how might we explain the difference between shame and guilt to our patients?
Patti Witt: So guilt is when you do something bad. Shame is ‘I am bad.’ So when you do something bad, you feel guilty about it because you are crossing your values. Maybe one of my values is to be kind and then when I'm not kind to somebody, I'm going to feel guilty because that's not my value and so I need to apologize, make amends, let it go. Shame is, ‘I am bad for doing that. And I can't forgive myself. And it feels [00:18:00] awful.’ And the part of it is you can't forgive yourself because you can never do enough to rectify it.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right. So it becomes this kind of self enforcing loop and oftentimes my patients describe how I feel like I can't get out of that because I feel shame and I feel like I'm never enough. There's no behaviors that I could do to make it better and for me to get out of that space of feeling like I'm never enough.
Patti Witt: I'm just thinking about the negative part of getting out of it is using – attacking yourself, attacking other people, using the eating disorder, drugs, alcohol to numb yourself out, or isolating, running away, hiding. Those are the ways that you can use shame, or manage shame. But in the middle of that, you're ruminating about what happened.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right.
Patti Witt: Getting out of shame is actually being able to step out of yourself and connect to somebody else to help you see [00:19:00] something different.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Therapy, right?
Patti Witt: That's it. Because you find somebody safe. It doesn't have to be in therapy, but you find somebody safe that can like, help you just say, ‘Oh, I feel that way, too. Or Yeah, I've been that way. You know, that's happened to me.’
Dr. Karen Nelson: But there is a way of that negative loop or that almost like self-fulfilling thing of like, I'm not enough. I'll never be enough. And I will always believe that.
Patti Witt: And we have to help. That's what – our job is to help them figure out a way out of it, or shifting out of that, or finding different beliefs. For me, I hear people say, when you put it into the context, when we shift the context, I can see where it comes from. So it's kind of that being curious, and just even having that possibility sometimes can spark, ‘I'm not gonna totally believe you just because you're telling me. But I might start to think, hmm, maybe.’
Dr. Karen Nelson: Exactly. So, that's why we need you to come [00:20:00] back week after week.
Patti Witt: That's right.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Right. It's not one and done.
Patti Witt: Right. Because now, me as the therapist, I'm going to know what the patterns are and I'm going to kind of point things out gently about, oh, this connects to your core belief. Do you notice this? Or you're, let's talk about when you're vulnerable to your core belief. And so, start to like, wind through their lives and show them where the core beliefs show up and how they help them in certain ways, but how they really harm them.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Really good point. Really good point. So, again, this isn't just a conversation we have one day, one time.
Patti Witt: No, this is a conversation that we have every time they come in. Because, again, if a person is stuck in an eating disorder, or struggles to maintain friendships, or has anger problems, or eating disorders, they're stuck, and it's probably connected to how they see themselves. [00:21:00] How they see the world. How they experience other people. And those all kind of go back to those, they also come limiting self-beliefs. Negative core beliefs. Same thing.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Absolutely. I think about core beliefs as a worldview. Like you were saying, we have all this information around us. What is kind of the filter that I pull in information? I'll kind of give patients examples where they will describe an experience that has happened to them and they're narrating it. Saying, ‘Well, I screwed up, I messed this up, you know, I'm to blame.’ And then I'll narrate it back to them almost in a different way. Like you were saying, giving them a different perspective of, this person had a part of the responsibility, the environment had a natural part of the responsibility, someone potentially should have protected you or intervened. And it can be overwhelming for our patients to hear different interpretations of that.[00:22:00]
Patti Witt: Right, because they've been living with, ‘I caused this. I made this happen. I didn't do anything to stop it.’
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right.
Patti Witt: And so the core belief is, I should have. Anytime you hear the word should, then you know that there's going to be shame attached to it. And if you should have done something, of course, you're going to feel shame.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Yeah. And so the value of therapy, and these are moments that are often very emotional, really tender, often intimate. I use that word a lot. We're really talking about challenging situations that have happened for our patients, but us as therapists can help them interpret it, make sense of it in a different way.
Patti Witt: I watch people when they're telling me something, and they're watching me to see what my reaction is. And I tell people, ‘You can tell me anything and we'll make sense of it and we'll work through it.’ And that is a way to hopefully reduce the shame. [00:23:00]
Dr. Karen Nelson: So good. It's so good. I like that you brought that up, that as therapists we are very attuned to our patients and we appreciate and understand why our patients are watching us, as their therapist, for our reaction. Of course, you and I experience emotion just like they do. Or I often tell people I'm a super-feeler, feelings are my superpower. So, I feel all the things, and it can be really validating when a patient maybe shares a hard story, and I have a lot of compassion in my eyes, or I will just use the space to indicate through body language, maybe putting my hand on my heart or maybe I'm nodding to just demonstrate care and compassion. It can be a very different experience for our patients to have nurturance as they're maybe sharing some of those past hard things that [00:24:00] have happened. Versus in the past ridicule, more shame.
Patti Witt: So when you're feeling big feelings, your heart might be pounding. You might not be breathing. You might be breathing really shallowly. Your hands might be tingling. You might start to kind of float out of the room a little bit. You might start to shut down where you can't hear what's going on in the room. And so, regulation is helping you to come back into the room, ground yourself, start to breathe again. So think about if you have a pet and you're anxious and you start petting your dog or your cat, what happens is that starts to like slow things down. Your breath starts to regulate, your body starts to feel less tense, and you come back into the room. You're in the moment. Instead of out of the moment, out of your body, feeling these big feelings as you were talking about.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Because we know people who potentially have [00:25:00] experienced trauma, as we start maybe revisiting some of those images or themes, it makes sense that my body is going to react. So maybe people will almost have like panic attacks, right? And again, we want to just normalize. I think that word can feel really scary. It basically just means that my body is feeling big feelings. And that can feel overwhelming. And so as your therapist, Patti and I just help regulate you. This thing happens, you know, when – basically what's happening when a panic attack is occurring is, my feeling brain is on fire, is what I tell people.
Patti Witt: Yes.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Right? It is SOS. Also, my logical brain isn't working as it normally would. And so what the goal of when someone feels very dysregulated is to help kind of normalize their breathing. You use the word grounding, which basically just means kind of bringing you back into the moment. [00:26:00] Kind of a classic grounding technique that Patti and I use, most therapists use. It's called 5 4 3 2 1. And it just brings you right into the moment. Look around, five things I can see. Four things I can touch, three things I can–
Both: Hear.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Two things I can –
Patti Witt: Smell.
Dr. Karen Nelson: And one thing I can –
Patti Witt: Actually, I say one fact about my office.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Oh, I love it.
Patti Witt: And they have, they look around and it usually takes a little bit for them to find a fact about my office. But there, you are using your thinking brain at that point.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Love it.
Patti Witt: You're not using an emotion. You're saying there's a door.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's it.
Patti Witt: Across the room.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Beautiful. And so, dysregulation, again, just means that I'm feeling potentially overwhelmed. There's maybe body changes. The benefit of being in the room with someone is that, as your therapist, I'm very attuned to you. So I'm probably noticing your breathing changes. And that's where I might pause. So [00:27:00] we're not escalating to a place of feeling completely overwhelmed, I'm going to say, let's take a breath together. I'm going to use my voice to help regulate you, soothe you. So let's talk about some specifics of how we might help someone work to start to challenge or even then change their negative core belief.
Patti Witt: We start to look how inconsistent the core belief actually is. We try to put it into context, the bigger context. Yes, the world can be a scary and dangerous place, but not all the time.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right.
Patti Witt: When was the last time that you found joy in the world? When was the last time somebody smiled at you?
Dr. Karen Nelson: It's so important. Oftentimes, I encourage my patients, let's look for the neutral. So instead of saying, I'm terrible, I'm bad, to working to get them to be convinced that they're wonderful and great, maybe we hover in the middle and say, ‘I'm okay today.’ That feels much more doable.
Patti Witt: And the other thing that I do with my [00:28:00] clients is we look at like how it was – the core belief was – developed and really kind of embrace that little person that came up with that. Of course they came up with that. It makes sense that they came up with that idea.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right.
Patti Witt: And so to not shame you as a little person when you came up with that negative thought about yourself or the world. Of course that makes sense.
Dr. Karen Nelson: I think also the process of therapy, as we start moving through these examples, as your therapist, we're going to help guide you through those. But then this cool thing happens. Over time and with consistency in practice, our clients are learning how to identify that their core belief might be triggered. Evaluate and take in the information and then process these events in a different way. So that over time, I don't need to come to therapy. I'm able to identify, ‘Oh, yep, this is happening for me. Let me [00:29:00] look for evidence or let me tolerate the idea that it could be a different way.’ That's kind of the process of change.
Patti Witt: There it is.
Dr. Karen Nelson: I joke with one of my patients as we're working on this idea of core beliefs. She'll say, ‘I'll say to myself, what would Karen say? What would Karen say?’ Right? Like our voice as their therapist kind of lives in their head. You know, she'll hear me say, I believe you are, you're important. Or again, those messages that they may have, or we would have hoped they received in their growing up years or through other interactions with friends and family, they can get those in therapy.
Patti Witt: So that's, to me, part of the repair. Yeah. Is that they hear our voice, which hopefully eventually becomes their voice.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right.
Patti Witt: And then their voice can tolerate a lot more than it used to be able to.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Oh, it's so good!
Patti Witt: Mm hmm.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Right? Yeah. Because I just think about, you know, this patient when she was like, ‘I say to myself, what would Karen say? What would Karen do?’ My you know, reflection back to her is, ‘No, no, [00:30:00] what would you do?’ And that transition, right? We're gonna just kind of build some scaffolding, give them some skills, and then the goal is that over time people are able to do these experiences on their own. Let's maybe talk about just briefly some skills that listeners might be able to use as we're having this, you know, really cool conversation about core beliefs or self-talk. Self-talk really is just kind of how we talk to ourselves in our own head, you know. So if I mess up at work or if I drop something at work, I might have thoughts of like, ‘Oh my gosh, I'm so dumb. People are going to think I'm an idiot. I can't believe I did that.’ Maybe it might not be negative. It might be like, ‘Oh my gosh, you know, I'm so silly today.’
Patti Witt: Sometimes people have more negative self-talk and very little self-talk. And so that's a little bit more troublesome when you don't have the positive talk or the supportive talk outweighing the negative talk.
Dr. Karen Nelson: How might we, or do we as therapists, do you think, [00:31:00] kind of encourage more positive self-talk? Or I don't know, what do you notice about that?
Patti Witt: Well, first of all, it's even having them identify that they have negative self-talk. Because it's so automatic that it's running through their brain without, you know – there's no stop sign. There's no stop light, red stop light. And so just even identifying, what are they thinking? Because they – if you want to change it, you better know that you even have it. And then what is it? What is being said? And then the next step for me is when you notice it, to just stop it. You don't even have to challenge it yet. Eventually you want to challenge it and maybe have the more supportive self-talk come through. And being curious of like, wow, where did that come from? So that's probably the most important thing is kind of slowing down and noticing what is actually going through your head.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Absolutely. I mean, of course, we love journaling as [00:32:00] therapists, right? And again, I don't often tell people, I mean, you can kind of narrate or journal as a prose or something. Oftentimes, I encourage people, almost like bullet points, or maybe keep notes in their phone, right? If something stressful happens at work, what are those kind of thoughts that are zipping through my head? Try and, like you said, I got to kind of notice, but write them down. And often it's eye opening for people of like, whoa, I didn't know that. We say it at the beginning of every podcast, notice and pay attention, take notice. Because life is really busy and exhausting. Sometimes when I notice, I feel big feelings and so that can feel scary. So we just get it that it's hard work to pay attention.
Patti Witt: It is, isn't it?
Dr. Karen Nelson: You bet. Patti and I, we were talking off mic. One of the things we know as therapists is that I cannot logic my way out of emotion. I tell my patients that all the time. You cannot [00:33:00] fact-find your way out of feelings. Feelings are different and they don't always make sense. And they're actually not always true, and it can feel overwhelming to try and integrate that. And so – as Patty and I are both trained trauma therapists, we do utilize different techniques to help people kind of access and connect their feeling and logical brain.
Patti Witt: So I want to just make a comment on what you said. So when you say feelings are not always true or not always facts, I think what you're saying is that the thought is bringing up the feeling, right? And the thoughts aren't always true.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Very true.
Patti Witt: Or the thoughts aren't always fact. They're just thoughts.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Right.
Patti Witt: I think I heard that we're going to have about 40,000 thoughts a day and not all of them are going to be true.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Very true.
Patti Witt: And so we, that's one of the things that we do in therapy is we look at the thoughts that are producing the feelings.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Really good point. I'm so glad you said that. Absolutely, [00:34:00] because again, part of therapy is having some space to really validate feelings. Sometimes my patients will look for evidence to say, ‘Is this feeling okay? Is it okay that I feel this way?’ And we really want to just create space. Feelings are just there. They're not good or bad. They're not right or wrong. They're just there to give us information.
Patti Witt: Yeah. Yeah. I also want to say that it is absolutely possible to shift the way you believe about yourself or the world or other people. Absolutely possible.
Dr. Karen Nelson: It absolutely is.
Patti Witt: Mm hmm.
Dr. Karen Nelson: Absolutely. Any final encouraging messages that you might have for patients who are maybe listening today?
Patti Witt: I say, come in, do the hard work. We want to be with you. We want to help you have a different life. We want you to have the life that you want to have.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's right. It's possible.
Patti Witt: It is possible. Patti, I just so appreciate your wisdom and responses to all these [00:35:00] really hard questions that I asked you today. Again, thank you again.
Patti Witt: Thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed being here.
Dr. Karen Nelson: That's it for today. Thanks for joining me. We've covered a lot, so I encourage you to let it settle and filter in. And as I tell my patients at the end of every session: Take notice, pay attention, and we'll take it as it comes. I'll talk to you next time. To learn more about Melrose Center, please visit MelroseHeals.com.
If you or a loved one are suffering from an eating disorder, we're here to help. Call 952 993 6200 to schedule an appointment and begin the journey towards healing and recovery. We'd love to hear your feedback on our episodes, the topics we cover and anything you'd like to hear me discuss on the show. Our email addresses melrose@parknicollet.com. I look forward to hearing from you. Melrose Heals: A [00:36:00] Conversation About Eating Disorders was made possible by generous donations to the Park Nicollet Foundation.