Melrose Heals: A conversation about eating disorders

Episode 1 - Meet Dr. Karen Nelson

Episode Summary

On the inaugural episode of Melrose Heals, Dr. Karen Nelson is joined by the Director of Melrose, Dr. Heather Gallivan On this episode you’ll learn about our host, Dr. Karen Nelson. Her approach to treatment and the passion she has for her clients and her belief that recovery is possible.

Episode Notes

On the inaugural episode of Melrose Heals, Dr. Karen Nelson is joined by the Director of Melrose, Dr. Heather Gallivan On this episode you’ll learn about our host, Dr. Karen Nelson. Her approach to treatment and the passion she has for her clients and her belief that recovery is possible.

Click here for a transcript of this episode. 

Episode Transcription

Dr. Karen Nelson  00:00

Eating Disorders thrive in secrecy and shame. It's when we create a safe space for honest conversation that we'll find the opportunity for healing. Hi there. I'm Dr. Karen Nelson, licensed clinical psychologist at Melrose center. Welcoming you to Melrose Heals: A Conversation about Eating Disorders. The podcast designed to explore, discuss, and understand eating disorders and mental health. On this episode, I'm joined by my friend, colleague and the director of Melrose, Dr. Heather Gallivan. She is passionate about her work and believes that we can prevent eating disorders through education and outreach. And Heather, in many ways, is the reason why this podcast exists. We thought since this was our first episode we do something a little bit differently. Heather will actually be interviewing me. Our hope is that through this conversation you'll get to learn a little bit more about me, my approach towards treatment, and why I think this podcast is so important. We'll of course hear about Heather as well, as she's a tremendous resource here at Melrose and someone I'm honored to have as a friend and colleague. Now, before I begin, I invite you to take a deep breath, and join me in this space. [piano music]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  01:24

Hey, Karen! 

Dr. Karen Nelson  01:25

Hi, there! 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  01:26

What a great intro. That sounded so professional. Is this really your very first podcast? 

Dr. Karen Nelson  01:32

It really is.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  01:33

Man, get out!

Dr. Karen Nelson  01:34

I know it! 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  01:35

So great. So, I am so excited to be here with you today. And I get to interview you so our audience can get to know you as we kick off this podcast series. And you know, when we talked about doing this... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  01:50

[overlapping] Right?

Dr. Heather Gallivan  

 Often, you know, I do a lot of speaking.

Dr. Karen Nelson  01:53

 Right? [Overlapping] I know... [indistinguishable]...

Dr. Heather Gallivan  01:54

Ya know...[Overlapping] This isn't... I don't want to be that person...

Dr. Karen Nelson  01:57

 I feel like you're really good at it. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  02:01

Uh, Thank you. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  02:02

[laughs] 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  02:03

And you were like the person...

Dr. Karen Nelson  02:06

Awww

Dr. Heather Gallivan  02:06

 ... That came to my mind.

Dr. Karen Nelson  02:08

Aww

Dr. Heather Gallivan  02:08

So, ever since I have known you, just being in your presence is really... it's a delight. You're gonna support people. But you're gonna tell them the things they need to hear even when it's hard.

Dr. Karen Nelson  02:23

You bet. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  02:23

And that's what I love about you. And that's why I think you're the best person to do this podcast and have these conversations. Because you... you have such wisdom and insight and calmness, and you're able to have hard conversations, whether it's with a client... um...

Dr. Karen Nelson  02:43

[Overlaps] Right.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  02:43

 ... With me!

Dr. Karen Nelson  02:44

[Overlaps] Right?

Dr. Heather Gallivan  02:45

...With your colleagues... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  02:47

You bet.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  02:48

...With your family and kids and friends, you know? 

Dr. Karen Nelson  02:51

Absolutely. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  02:51

And I think that's what we're looking for... in this podcast and having these conversations.

Dr. Karen Nelson  02:57

First of all want to say how honored I am... um, that... I was approached with this idea of hosting the podcast. My goal, not only as a therapist but I think as I'm kind of wandering through this life, is really not only to show up with compassion... But authenticity is really kind of the word that I... you know, everybody has stuff, I think is what I'm figuring out, right? And in no way do I ever want to pretend or assume that I know exactly what somebody is going through. But I promise you, I'm going through something too. So if I, I think I'm just gonna show up and be real, and have lots of compassion. And that's where kind of magic happens. I get a lot of feedback from people. Actually, I have to tell you this really funny story. I was working with a patient recently, this particular person had a lot of tragedy in their life, and was hurt a lot, and so that was expressed through a lot of anger. And the patient commented. They said, "You know, Karen, first of all, you're the least terrible Karen I've ever met." And I said, "Well, I don't know what to do with that. But I just think I'm gonna take it as a compliment." And then they were able to get real. And they said, "I think you're the only person in my life that has been able to hold my anger and not run away." I think that moment was like, wow... I think this is what it's about. [emotional] I think it's about just like, showing up... and being honest. And in that space, [voice cracks] that's where people heal. It's... it's not in the fireworks and in the glory, and you know, in the banners. It's like in the hard stuff. And man, I just really get that. And I think my goal, and my promise to myself, is that I will always show up there with you... period.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  04:52

That's beautiful. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  04:52

Thank you.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  04:53

 Now we're both tearing up. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  04:54

[overlapping] I know, now we're both tearing up. So, I think it just means we're real. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  04:57

Yeah. And [indistinguishable] that's what I appreciate about you so much is you're a real person, and I think that is really important... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  05:05

Right. [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  05:06

...in treatment and in therapy is that we're humans too. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  05:10

Yeah! Like real... 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  05:12

Just because we're psychologists or doctors... we're real. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  05:15

So real.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  05:16

We're real people with real problems and stress and, you know, kids that encounter problems. And and I think that helps. When we show up as real people with our clients. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  05:28

Yeah.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  05:28

It can really make a huge difference.

Dr. Karen Nelson  05:30

I think that is the transformation. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  05:32

Mhmm

Dr. Karen Nelson  05:32

Right? when, you know, there are lots of schools of thought about how to do therapy. And the one school of thought that I've always resonated the most with is genuineness. I can only show up and be myself. And I will never, ever assume that I know better than you. I might have a different perspective. And I might encourage you to potentially see it in a slightly different way. But in no way will I ever judge. What I noticed when people come into therapy is that almost immediately they're searching my eyes and searching my face. And they're so worried about judgment. And so my goal in therapy is working to create a judgment-free zone. One of the ways I do that is I just name it. What I know is that oftentimes, when we don't talk about things, it doesn't mean that people aren't thinking them...

Dr. Heather Gallivan  06:30

 It just means we're not talking about them. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  06:32

And so, therapy becomes a space where we get to talk about the hard things and creating some safety around that. So me potentially naming some hard things and helping the client truly experience that I can hold a lot of emotion. I can hold intense situations, and I'm going to do it with compassion and grace. And that experience opens up a space of safety and trust.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  06:59

Yeah, and I think that's really a corrective experience for a lot of people. Because everywhere we turn...

Dr. Karen Nelson  07:04

Yes. [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  07:04

 ...In our lives, almost every minute of every day, except maybe when we're sleeping... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  07:09

Yes.  

Dr. Heather Gallivan  07:09

...There is judgment... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  07:10

A lot.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  07:11

Everywhere.  And let's not even go down the path of all the judgment that happens on social media, and... you know, every day at school or with our family, and it's just everywhere. And so having a place where patients can really feel safe and not judged is a very different, I think healing place for people to be in.

Dr. Karen Nelson  07:11

Yeah. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  07:34

Absolutely, and like you said, it often is really unique. And it can take potentially people a while to believe it and trust it. And I think just continuing to be consistent and showing up in that judgement-free zone is a really big deal. I use the word "curiosity" a lot in therapy because I want my patients never in a space of judgment, or worry about fear, but really in a space of curiosity to just kind of look at what the behavior is doing. So the eating disorder behavior might be showing up. And then being curious about "Huh, I wonder what the function of that behavior was?" An example might be someone potentially had a very stressful day at work, right? And their boss was really intense, and they were yelling at them. And they chose to skip through lunch, came home, didn't eat dinner, and went to bed immediately. So we would look at the stressor of work potentially being a trigger to utilize some of that eating disorder behavior, such as restriction, and really just doing that continuously in therapy. Lots of exploration and curiosity. There are those reasons, right? People don't wake up one day and say, "Hey, I think I'll have an eating disorder today."

Dr. Karen Nelson  08:51

We promise they don't, right?

Dr. Heather Gallivan  08:53

 Right.

Dr. Karen Nelson  08:53

 You and I both know...

Dr. Heather Gallivan  08:54

Yeah. [overlapping]

Dr. Karen Nelson  08:55

 ...That the significant struggle that happens in that space.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  08:59

And it doesn't happen overnight. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  09:01

No. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  09:01

And therefore you don't get out of it overnight, either. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  09:04

Really good point!

Dr. Heather Gallivan  09:05

Yeah.

Dr. Karen Nelson  09:05

 I think, yeah.... [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  09:06

I always tell my patients, "You know, hey, this probably developed over, you know, how many however many months or years this isn't gonna change in a week or a month, or not even a year sometimes." 

Dr. Karen Nelson  09:18

Very good point. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  09:19

Yeah.

Dr. Karen Nelson  09:19

Very good point.  Yeah.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  09:20

So I'm, again, so excited that you are going to be hosting this podcast. And I think it's going to be amazing, but give us a little bit of preview...

Dr. Karen Nelson  09:30

Yeah. [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  09:31

... of what might be to come what topics might we cover?

Dr. Karen Nelson  09:34

Wonderful question. Again, our goal is really to increase outreach and just... expand and do a lot of exploration around all the intricacies that do show up in eating disorders to really just kind of broaden the scope. So not only will we be talking about, you know, specific eating disorders, you know, specific diagnoses, right? So we might, you know, have episodes on, you know, anorexia or bulimia. We want to specifically focus on all the parts that impacted. So talking about food and the holidays, talking about relationships, talking about the diet industry, talking about movement and New Year's resolutions. Talking about this very real topic, right, of the pandemic! And how much that has impacted not only our patients who have struggled with eating disorders but more broadly all of mental health, not only in our country, but quite frankly, out worldwide.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  10:34

For sure, for sure. When we... sometimes when we talk about things with eating disorders, some of the topics or words we use, or avenues we go down, can be triggering.

Dr. Karen Nelson  10:47

 Yes. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  10:48

First of all, tell me what does that even mean, triggering? 

Dr. Karen Nelson  10:52

Absolutely. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  10:53

And if I'm listening in and I feel triggered, what can I do about that? 

Dr. Karen Nelson  10:59

Really good question. So triggered really is an emotional response. When I feel triggered, it means that I'm, I'm feeling some. Right? And what we know in eating disorders is that feelings can push the urge to engage in eating disorder behavior. So when I feel triggered, maybe we're talking about something that feels overwhelming or big. Maybe I'm feeling scared, or stressed. I may then want to engage in eating disorder behavior to minimize that stress. What happens if I do feel triggered? We want to encourage you to access your treatment team, to take some deep breaths, we say it at the beginning of the podcast, to work to kind of manage your own internal stress. And... I think it's important that we name clearly that we believe that you can flow through that and you can handle it. I have mentioned many times simply by not talking about something in an attempt to protect someone doesn't mean that that issue is going to go away. It just means it's not talked about here. And so we very much have a belief at Melrose that our patients are resilient, and strong and powerful. And they do have the capacity to manage things that might be hard. And they can evolve through that.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  12:21

Yeah. And you know, I think with some of these topics, it is important. They are triggering because they elicit some of those emotions. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  12:32

Yes. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  12:33

And part of I think our job is to help people understand that, try out new skills and things that can help them... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  12:42

Absolutely.  Absolutely. [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  12:42

...Because we're gonna... they're gonna leave our office, go out in the world, and it's not like there aren't a million things every day that are going to happen that can be triggering.  And so we want to really help those patients kind of generalize out there... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  12:57

You got it. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  12:58

That they can handle this. They did it with us...

Dr. Karen Nelson  13:00

For sure. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  13:01

And they might then connect the dots and see it out in their day-to-day life. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  13:05

Very true.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  13:06

Because it's gonna happen.

Dr. Karen Nelson  13:07

 It will, right?  I mean, so you know, if we avoided talking about you know, diets or the diet industry, if we avoided talking about food and the holidays, that does not mean that those topics go away. It just means that I potentially have, you know, avoided the opportunity to prepare how to manage that stress. And so listening to maybe some of the podcasts that are to come, really is a way to explore, "Gosh, what are some of the emotions that might come up? And how might I manage those emotions going forward?"

Dr. Heather Gallivan  13:08

Right. That's right. And you know, I think in general, um, not only just with eating disorders, but our society sometimes we have this, like, misconception or this belief that emotions are bad.

Dr. Karen Nelson  13:51

Yes. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  13:51

And it's bad to feel emotion. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  13:54

Right, right. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  13:55

Or be an emotional person. And that's not the case right?

Dr. Karen Nelson  14:01

Not at all. Not at all. Well, you know, I often talk about in therapy there truly is no emotion that is good or bad. There... we're the ones that attach the judgment to it, right? And and that judgment or those assessments might come from our family of origin, from, right, culture in general. We may be told that we're not supposed to be angry or upset and those types of things. And no wonder it can feel really confusing and conflicting when I do feel a certain type of emotion. Emotions are there to just give us information. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  14:35

Yup.  

Dr. Karen Nelson  14:36

That's it

Dr. Heather Gallivan  14:36

And they're a spectrum, right? 

Dr. Karen Nelson  14:38

You got it!

Dr. Heather Gallivan  14:39

Like you said, we attach those judgments that you know, this group of emotions are bad...

Dr. Karen Nelson  14:44

Yes.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  14:45

...Like anger, or frustration. But oh boy, I do want to feel happy. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  14:48

Absolutely. [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  14:48

It's a package. [laughs]

Dr. Karen Nelson  14:49

It is the full package! [Both laughing] 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  14:49

Totally! 

Dr. Karen Nelson  14:49

You got it

Dr. Heather Gallivan  14:50

And I always say, "Hey, you can't appreciate all that unless you have kind of the whole deal." 

Dr. Karen Nelson  14:52

Well. Emotion is a continuum. And so I can't, you know, numb out one aspect, and then assume that I'm going to get all of the positive, it doesn't work that way.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  15:04

And a lot of times that can be the function of the eating disorder behaviors, right?

Dr. Karen Nelson  15:11

Oh my gosh, yes.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  15:11

That, hey, I don't want to feel these things, therefore, I'm gonna, you know, not eat or I'm gonna to binge. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  15:12

Yes. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  15:12

And, and we need to teach patients, how do you experience this whole package of emotions?  Without having to use things that, you know, harm us potentially, or we feel bad about later. I have kind of an interesting question for you. We've talked about this. We both know that it can be very challenging for individuals to say, "Yes, it's time, I need to get some help with this. I'm ready." So if I'm struggling with an eating disorder, I'm listening to this cool podcast, I'm learning a lot... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  15:14

You got it. Yes. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  15:57

...Is that okay, for treatment?

Dr. Karen Nelson  15:59

Well, I think it's a wonderful first step. What we know is that eating disorders are serious. And addressing mental health issues, specifically eating disorders, it's very important to access specialized care. And so if you are potentially identifying with some of the things that we're talking about today, there's different ways that you could potentially access treatment. You could, if there are already established connections with a therapist, you could bring up eating disorder struggle with your individual therapist. It's actually not uncommon that somebody may be in individual therapy and have never talked about their eating disorder with their individual therapist. That is super common.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  16:41

I hear that all the time...

Dr. Karen Nelson  16:42

All the time! [overlapping] 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  16:43

...when I do assessments... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  16:45

Yes! [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  16:45

...With people. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  16:46

Right. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  16:46

They've never brought it up. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  16:48

Right. Absolutely. And so that could be a wonderful place to start. Again, that really speaks to the shame, right? Being able to have that conversation out loud with your individual therapist. If there's no potential therapy that has been initiated, reaching out to your medical doctor is a wonderful place to start. We have some... as I had mentioned, we have some worksheets or handouts that can more describe symptoms, and that type of thing on our website is a wonderful place to go. You know, working and, you know, contacting other community resources is a wonderful way to start to access treatment. But I think making sure that we're not minimizing our own struggle, if there's something internally that says, "Hmm, I think I should explore this," I would encourage you to trust that internal talk, and do some exploration around that.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  17:42

One thing I also hope with this podcast is that not only that people out there with eating disorders that maybe aren't in treatment learn from, but also patients and families. Being a parent or a significant other of someone with an eating disorder really can be a very stressful, lonely, overwhelming role. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  18:02

Absolutely. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  18:02

And so what do you think family members, significant others friends... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  18:08

Yes. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  18:09

...Can take away from this?

Dr. Karen Nelson  18:10

Wonderful question. It's probably the most common question, I think, as therapists we get is... "How do I support my loved one?" And a couple things come to mind. Number one, we can ask. That's a really important thing to do, right? And again, having space to have that conversation is really important. The other piece is to grow your own education. You know, listening to this podcast, even just exploring some of the vocabulary that we use around talking about eating disorders. We use the word "binge". We use the word "trigger". We use the word "numb" and "avoid". And that can feel kind of confusing when we're first interacting with this conversation about recovery. And so listening to conversations about eating disorders and recovery is a really supportive, wonderful way to show your loved one that you're interested and that you care, and that you're invested in their recovery.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  19:07

Yes, and you want to learn.

Dr. Karen Nelson  19:09

And you want to learn.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  19:10

Knowledge is power, I think. And these conversations really... one... You know, over the years, it seems like it can be really difficult for friends, families, significant others, even other, like, mental health professionals... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  19:22

Yes, yes. [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  19:22

...Or medical professionals to have these conversations about... I'm worried about 'X'... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  19:29

Yes [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  19:31

...Behavior. It scares them.

Dr. Karen Nelson  19:33

Yes!

Dr. Heather Gallivan  19:34

And then they therefore don't have those conversations, and they're potentially missing opportunities...

Dr. Karen Nelson  19:40

For sure. [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  19:41

...With their loved ones. And so I really think that, and I hope that this podcast can be a tool for friends and family members to use to educate and empower them to have some of those difficult conversations.

Dr. Karen Nelson  19:56

You bet, for sure. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  19:57

Yeah.

Dr. Karen Nelson  19:57

And in that space of we're having these conversations and I don't have to get it right. Maybe I do... maybe I fumble through a little bit, right? 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  20:06

Mhmm [overlapping]

Dr. Karen Nelson  20:07

But the theme is... 'I care about you', right? That is the theme. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  20:10

That's right.

Dr. Karen Nelson  20:11

That I hear again and again, from family and friends, and loved ones is "I am worried about this person". And so I often say, "Have you said that?"

Dr. Heather Gallivan  20:20

Right. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  20:20

You could say that, right? We don't have to get the words, right. I don't have to say it all in one sentence, or even in one conversation. I think oftentimes when someone is struggling with an eating disorder they feel really alone and isolated, and also have some shame in even bringing it up. And so there is so much power and healing that can happen when a family member says, "Hey, I see you. And I just want you to know I'm here." I don't have to know all the words.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  20:50

Having that conversation can really be the thing...

Dr. Karen Nelson  20:55

Yeah.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  20:56

 ...That helps the individual start to think, "Maybe... maybe I can..." 

Dr. Karen Nelson  21:02

Yeah. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  21:03

"...Maybe I can go get an assessment. Maybe I can enter therapy."

Dr. Karen Nelson  21:08

Absolutely. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  21:09

And even if it doesn't go well...

Dr. Karen Nelson  21:11

Right?

Dr. Heather Gallivan  21:12

I always say, "You just crack the door open... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  21:15

For sure. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  21:16

"...For future movement." So...

Dr. Karen Nelson  21:18

 Absolutely. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  21:19

And we actually know that people who do involve supportive others in their treatment oftentimes have a more positive response to treatment.

Dr. Karen Nelson  21:28

Very good point [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  21:29

Even though that's scary to do, it's super important. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  21:32

Absolutely. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  21:33

Yeah.

Dr. Karen Nelson  21:33

Absolutely. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  21:34

Yeah. [audible deep breath] Karen, what is... what is your hope for what people get out of this podcast.

Dr. Karen Nelson  21:43

I mean, as silly as it sounds, my hope is that they have hope. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  21:46

I love it. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  21:47

I think it is important, especially in truly acknowledging some of the pain and suffering that does happen when someone is working to recover from an eating disorder, that having glimmers of hope... to continue the conversation for treatment that, you know, oftentimes people share with me, they may see me once a week, once every other week, that they want to stay connected to the recovery community. And my hope is that this will be a way for our patients and future patients or loved ones, care providers to stay in the conversation. I think that is really important that we have people... have a community that they can tap into. And it's in that space of community that we often find healing. You know, I tell people oftentimes "When someone is working to get better, healing happens in relationship." And so it's in the therapy relationship. It's in the relationship that you potentially might develop with us in this podcast, that space of safety and healing, and to continue to offer hope that healing is possible.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  22:56

Any words on how people find hope when they're facing an eating disorder?

Dr. Karen Nelson  23:00

I think there are a variety of ways that we might tap into that. I think I'm a really big believer in obviously accessing therapy and continuing to tap into your care team. I think as we were talking about other supportive others, right? So you know, tapping into maybe a best friend or a caregiver. I can't explain how helpful our pets are in, you know, offering hope. I'm a really big advocate for post-it notes on the mirror. I tell people to buy window markers, and it may feel kind of silly and... not possible to grow hope. But sometimes I just need a word, or a statement or music or something to just get me through that next breath. I often tell people as I start journeying with them, I will hold the hope for you that you will get better I believe in recovery, intimately. I believe in it otherwise I wouldn't do this work. And I really do see part of my job as your therapist is I will hold the hope for you. And I will cultivate it. And I will grow it. And we'll grow it together. And when you're ready, I'm gonna hand it back to you, and I'm just gonna let you fly with it. And that is the coolest job ever. Right?! [laughs]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  24:21

It is so cool. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  24:21

It is so cool! [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  24:22

And I really love that, "I will hold the hope for you." 

Dr. Karen Nelson  24:25

I will. [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  24:26

And you know, I've worked here a long time, 17 years. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  24:29

Yes!

Dr. Heather Gallivan  24:31

And I've been with some patients a long time where they've had periods of recovery, and then things have maybe not gone so well. And then, you know, supporting them through getting back to that place...

Dr. Karen Nelson  24:45

Yeah.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  24:45

And the cool thing with some of those folks is they come out on the other side even more... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  24:52

Yes. [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  24:53

...Enriched and enlightened and... you know, ready to kind of tackle life and continue to experience it. Yep. And you know, I think it doesn't matter if you've had your eating disorder, six months...

Dr. Karen Nelson  25:06

Yes...

Dr. Heather Gallivan  25:07

...Six years, 20 years, 26 years, there is always hope, right? 

Dr. Karen Nelson  25:12

Absolutely. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  25:12

One of the beautiful things I've experienced in my career here is some of our most challenging patients...  ...That have come to us... And watching them go through a very tough process, and I'll be honest with you sometimes, you know, wondering, "Oh, man, is this... are they gonna get there?" 

Dr. Karen Nelson  25:25

Yes! [overlapping] Yes.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  25:34

And then hearing maybe, you know, five or 10 years down the road, we haven't seen or heard from them and suddenly we get a card or an email...

Dr. Karen Nelson  25:45

Yes

Dr. Heather Gallivan  25:45

 ...From a former patient telling us all the great things that they are doing in life. And it's really the most amazing feeling.

Dr. Karen Nelson  25:53

The most. I have a story actually to share about that. I've been working with someone for about six years, we had kind of our final therapy appointment, our closing session. She's done such beautiful work and healing from her eating disorder. She said to me in our final session... I'm gonna try not to get choked up as I say this, but she said, "In our first session, Karen..." she said, "You told me, 'I can't wait until you see yourself like I see you.'" And she looked at me, through video chat, because "Hello, COVID." She said, "I think I see myself like you do now." And that was it. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  26:30

I Love it.

Dr. Karen Nelson  26:31

Like... done! Like, day over, day made. That was it for me. And I think that that speaks to hope, right? 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  26:38

Mhmm

Dr. Karen Nelson  26:39

That... from that initial conversation that I had with her all those years ago, I could see it. I could I could see it, that recovery was possible for her.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  26:49

I love that. It's a great story. And I think that is what, you know, when I see our clients I see all that potential, right? 

Dr. Karen Nelson  27:00

Yes! [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  27:00

And it's something that I always say eating disorders really kind of dampen people's ability to sort of live up to their full potential and live life to its fullest. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  27:10

Absolutely.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  27:10

And that's a great story to represent that, right? 

Dr. Karen Nelson  27:13

Absolutely.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  27:13

And it's why we do this work, is to watch folks recover and see themselves like we see them and experience them in the way that they are.

Dr. Karen Nelson  27:24

You got it. Absolutely. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  27:25

'Cause the eating disorder really put so much judgment on that, that they can't see it.

Dr. Karen Nelson  27:30

For sure. 

Dr. Heather Gallivan  27:31

Love that. Is there anything that you want to share or say that we haven't already talked about today?

Dr. Karen Nelson  27:39

My main point, I guess, or the the main thing that I do want to share is, first of all, being intimately excited that I have this opportunity. And I'm deeply, deeply grateful for each person that listens, and quite frankly, that has allowed me to wander with them in their journey. You know, I tell people, truly, that I have the coolest job. And I will never take it for granted that people allow themselves to get so real and honest with me. And so my final words are just thank you. Thank you for allowing me to journey with you. And thank you for listening.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  28:19

Well, I would like to thank you, not only for our conversation today, but when I approached you asking if you would do this, agreeing to...

Dr. Karen Nelson  28:28

Yes! [overlapping]

Dr. Heather Gallivan  28:28

 ...Take this on... Because I'm just, again, I'm beyond thrilled that we are launching this and I think it's gonna be an amazing tool for us to continue to spread the word about eating disorders and Melrose and the amazing work we do here...

Dr. Karen Nelson  28:48

Absolutely.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  28:49

...With our patients and with our, with their families, and helping people find that hope and healing... 

Dr. Karen Nelson  28:57

Agreed.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  28:58

...To break away from the eating disorder. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  29:00

Absolutely.

Dr. Heather Gallivan  29:00

 So thank you so much. 

Dr. Karen Nelson  29:01

Thank you!

Dr. Heather Gallivan  29:02

It's been great to be here with you today.

Dr. Karen Nelson  29:04

[Outro: piano music]: That's it for today. Thanks for joining me! We've covered a lot. So I encourage you to let it settle and filter in. And as I tell my patients at the end of every session, "Take notice. Pay attention, and we'll take it as it comes." I'll talk to you next time! 'Melrose Heals: A Conversation about Eating Disorders' was made possible by generous donations to the Park Nicollet Foundation.